Talk:These Are the Voyages... (episode)
FA nomination (03 Oct - 10 Oct 2005, Successful) A shortened summary and extensive background information sections. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 18:52, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Comment'. As both a self-nomination and a re-nomination (which btw, is there a waiting period for re-nominations?) shouldn't this go through Peer Review first? Logan 5 20:12, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC) **'Reply': The waiting period is ten days after the initial opposition. The article has gone through extensive Peer Review, which has helped to improve the article quite a bit. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 01:38, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC) **To clarify, the waiting time is over, the article has been through the Peer Review process and is now ready to be supported or opposed. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 18:56, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Support.' I've said it before, and I'll likely end up saying it many times in the future, Defiant does a great job writing and reworking articles. I'm still don't understand why the nitpick about the lack of MACOs or security officers was deleted, though. But, oh well. --From Andoria with Love 01:29, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Support'. It's good to see people aren't fighting over article length any more, or nominating episodes every five minutes for that matter. I think Ben got the hint. :P Anyway, good job. --Schrei 02:10, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Support'. I didnt mean to be a dick last time but it did need some reworking. Anyway its definately featured material, I actually learned from the BG section for once! BTW "Schrei" should be greatful I don't out the flaming closet trekkie (not an attack or threat just an observation). --Ben Sisqo 05:32, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Support'. Nice job, as usual. I want Defiant to synopsize all of my episodes! --Mike Sussman - VOY/ENT Writer-Producer 14:16, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC) **'Comment' Please be careful about what you say, being a VOY/ENT W/P. At this time only the episodes summaries from Defian/Shran seem to be nominated and found being FA worthy. (this could be about the lack of adding nominees by others though) It would be a bad thing if their way of writing episodes would become the 'unwritten standard' for FA nominees. This might prevent other episodes summaries from reaching FA, who are written in a different style, and with it might take out a part off the fun about adding to MA. (for me at least) -- Q 17:17, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC) **'Comment': If the method of writing episode summaries that Shran and I use becomes the "unwritten standard", it would not be through fault of Mike Sussman. Indeed, some users have suggested that this method has already become the unwritten standard, even before this user had anything to do with FAs. Also, I think Sussman should be allowed to express his views here (unless his sentiments are interpreted by the community as vandalism). He should be granted and allowed the same opportunities as every other user on MA. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 19:45, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC) **Plus I don't think Sussman was dismissing episode articles written by any other user, his statement seemed like a joky comment that he likes most of the episode articles I've written, not that he doesn't like any other user's. I bet that if anyone else apart from him had left that message (or a similar one) we wouldn't be having this discussion! That seems to show an unfairness currently present within MA. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 20:23, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC) ***'Comment' Of course Sussman is allowed the same opportunities as everyone else, and yes the 'Defiant class' articles were long before that, but because he worked as W/P at the VOY/ENT episodes some people might consider his opinion has more weight than other MA contributers when it comes to voting for FA's for instance. There were previous FA troubles on personal liking in stead off episode content. (that's what unfair, not this discussion) You right about his job, if he was not an W/P we would not have this discussion. I just wanted to avoid problems later on when people might use his background as an excuse. "He worked on the ST episodes so he's right and your not". I was simply not sure that everyone understood that it was a joky comment. ( I did'nt because I missed the ;) ) -- Q 21:00, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC) *'Support'. A significant episode with sufficient attention to the Background and Continuity elements. Though I still say there's no need for such long summaries, esp. for an hour-long ep. Logan 5 12:46, 8 Oct 2005 (UTC) Year of Episode According to TVGuide, the last episode takes place 6 years in the future. So 2160/61ish. -AJHalliwell 01:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) :The Enterprise section of the episode is set in 2161 and features the signing of the Federation Charter from that year. :Some references to be added: alliance; Andorian; Andorian cabbage soup; Henry Archer; Reginald Barclay; Brazil; brig; bridge; catfish; cheese; chef; dog; Douglas; Edosian suckerfish; Federation Charter; holodeck; Intruder Alert; launch bay; linguistic database; Livingston; photograph; Jean-Luc Picard; Plomeek broth; Porthos; Rigel X; William T. Riker; senior staff]; Shran; spectral micrometer; tea; Tellarite; Teneebian; ; Vulcan; warp engine; Warp Five Complex; whiskey; Zefram Cochrane --Defiant | ''Talk'' 00:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ::all I'm going to say is, I've heard they're pulling a "St.Elsewhere", ie enterprise is just a bad holonovel kind of thing--BringerOfDoom 01:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :::Do you think that comment would be more appropriate for a forum? - this talk page is reserved for discussion of how the article should be structured, not for spoilers or plot discussion. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 06:39, 11 May 2005 (UTC) Fix the reference to Terra Prime to the Terra Prime (episode) link. Theres a quote there about Enterprise being the first series to not have a change in its regular cast through its entire run. Is it really necessary there? Would it not be better at the Star Trek: Enterprise page? -- Rebel Strike 18:33, 12 May 2005 (UTC) Captain Picard, and some Ferengi I noticed in the scene in Ten Forward, they used a clip from TNG. Could somebody figure out what this is from? I noticed several ferengi in there, on a seemingly peaceful appearence, so process of elimination on the Ferengi appearences could find'm. Also, I think you can see Captain Picard's back talking to (who I thought, at first was Raitten Grax) someone. -AJHalliwell 02:54, 14 May 2005 (UTC) : , perhaps? I didn't pick up on this and didn't tape the episode, so I'll be on the lookout during Sunday's rebroadcast -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 03:04, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Was the clip in HDTV? (I don't have it, so I can't verify) If it was, it was a recreation and the back of Picard's head was played by a different actor. Either way it means that Picard (the character) would have appeared in the episode, should somebody want to list him as being another actor who appeared in multiple finales. (And now, off to make an account on this Wiki...) ::I thought the Ten Forward set was entirely rebuilt, and the scene was filmed new alltogether. As I look at the screencaps of the episode, the lightening of Ten Forward is considerably lighter than it was on TNG... Ottens 12:43, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :Yeah, that corner of ten-foreward was rebuilt, but I am 95% sure that the first part clip was from a TNG episode. I don't think Patrick Stewert came in and redid anything. It might be from Menage a Troi, but I thought there were more aliens (not including the Ferengi) in that scene? I might be wrong. -AJHalliwell 18:02, 15 May 2005 (UTC) ::Mayby ? --TOSrules 19:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC) ::: I believe it is from Menage a Troi because you can see someone who might be assumed as Picard, a person who should have been in paler in color as Commander Data, and supposely Raitten. You can see a Ferengi sitting down playing, at least from what I can see from my TiVo recording, chess... The person who is sitting down is wearing a red shirt, who should have been Commander Riker. Behind the red shirt, you can see the science officer with the ponytail, like in Menage a Troi, and a supposely half-bald man who looks like a Ferengi but isn't. The man in the grey blocks our view of confirming a grey shirt which should have been Wesley standing next to the person sitting down in the red shirt. Further more, the person we assume as Raitten obstructs our view of the red shirt and what we assume behind him is Wesley. ::: But we pass by Commander Riker sitting with Counselor Troi, which is very odd... and we can see Riker in the right hand corner of the screen as a Zakdorn walks by in the scene (as we do in the first minute or so in Menage a Troi) We do see the first Ferengi at the bar, and as I mentioned before, the second one sitting down presumely playing chess. (There were two Ferengi in Menage a Troi in 10-Forward.) ::: But the most interesting about this scene is that is completely out of context with the Pegasus episode. In the Pegasus episode, they were investigating a Quasar or something... Menage a Troi was season 3, and Pegasus was 4 years later. If the Enterprise is supposely investigating a quasar shortly before receiving Admiral Preston, why are there Ferengi on board? --AllyUnion 07:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :::: I re-checked my DVDs. The entire thing is a reconstruction of Menage a Troi. From the replication of the pink drink on the left, and the yellow drink on the right... to the Bartender... just a small inserting of Commander Riker with Counselor Troi. :::: The tray was apparently red in Enterprise, but what looks like to be orange in Menage a Troi; Riker's stardate was different from Picard's in Menage a Troi, as well. You can see the flowers in both episodes. Counselor Troi is seated in the right place, but Commander Riker replaces Troi's mother in this apparent replication of the scene of Menage a Troi. Furthermore, Troi is wearing a standard Science's uniform in this episode, while in the Menage a Troi, she was wearing that offset Blue counselor's uniform. --AllyUnion 07:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :::::It obviously couldn't have taken place during TNG Season 3, since the stardate (and all of their conversation) place it during in TNG Season 7). I don't find the use of the Menage a Troi footage erroneous, however -- the bar's appearance changed only moderately over the course of the series, so there's no reason to assume the season 3 bar contradicts the season 7 bar. And Ferengi were often shown as passengers, on TNG and DS9 -- notably , "The Price", and "Menage a Troi" -- so this would only be slightly noteworthy as one of the few times the Ferengi came aboard without trying to cause trouble, of the above, only "Suspicions" had them not ss villains in disguise. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 12:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :::::: And the reason for a Zakdorn to be on the Enterprise would be??? While I'm aware that Enterprise-D had civilian crewmembers, I would think most of their civilian crew would be members of the families of the officers on board. --AllyUnion 17:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::::::: The Zakdorn are Federation allies -- there's no reason to not believe a Zakdorn could be a passenger or civilian resident of Enterprise (in fact, its more likely than a Ferengi I think) -- Picard himself said there were 12 different species in Enterprise's crew (in 2366). Like i said, there's nothing contradictory about it. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 18:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Riker and Troi's picture I think it might be more appropriate to find a different image to be the first on the page. Sure Riker and Troi were in the episode, but it's still the finale for ENT. I think it'd be more appropriate to move the Riker and Troi image further down on the page, and put an image of someone form the ENT cast there. Any opinions on this matter? :Agreed. We could sawp riker/troi with the first pic of t'pol and archer in that wikitable... AmdrBoltz 19:17, 22 May 2005 (UTC) ::Emotionally, I can see how you might think this. But remember . . . Archer and T'Pol aren't even in this episode. The characters who look like them are merely that - characters, created from "photons and forcefields"! --Defiant | ''Talk'' 22:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC) :::If you separate the two stories, "the last mission of NX-01" and "Riker and Troi converse amidst a holoprogram", i think the first one is more relevant. At least use a picture which features some elements of the Enterprise milieu, simply for the purpose of describing the topic better. The Riker/Troi picture really doesnt give a good picture of what the episode was about. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk ::What about using this official image? http://ent.trekpulse.com/mult/episodepics/season4/voyages/voyages2.jpg --Defiant | ''Talk'' 13:43, 23 May 2005 (UTC) ::::That image works for me. What does everyone else think?--docdude316 05:50, 28 May 2005 (UTC) :::Neat! -- just wondering -- did Riker's ENT era uniforms say "W. RIKER" on the name tags?--Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 13:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC) :::::Yes. (I can see it in the HD just after the computer says "Program saved" before the credits.) Image of Archer and T'Pol I don't see how the image of Archer walking away from T'Pol is necessary. IMO, it adds little more to the page. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 08:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC) :It was the last shot of Enterprise. Ottens 10:21, 29 May 2005 (UTC) Last shot? How? Wasn't the last shot Enterprise, flying into the nebula/anomaly thing? --Defiant | ''Talk'' 10:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) Act Two Not Completed This is to let everyone know that, although I have written much of it, Act Two is not yet complete. The most die hard of the fans will realize this, of course, but this message is to inform other visitors to the site. I will conmplete writing Act Two tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. But for now, however, I'm calling it a night. Well, technically a morning. Whatever. See you... out there! --From Andoria with Love 04:57, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC) :Despite a hasty wrap-up, Act Two is now complete. See you... out there! --From Andoria with Love 04:06, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) Changes of Uniforms Just a thought that would make this page really great (not that it's not already) but at (under "Launch sequence anomalies") they show a very brief video file of the chunk falling off Discovery. Is it possible to have a very brief video file on MA, of his uniform changing? Cause that's the first time we've seen an affect like that, (it's been implied/hinted at that the costumes are holographic). Just a thought, - AJHalliwell 20:22, 27 Aug 2005 (UTC) :It could be done as an animated GIF, if anyone thought it was appropriate (the GIF would avoid having to code a video) -- probably just 4 or more frames to show the two uniforms. seem like a good idea?--Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 12:50, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC) :This is not actually the first time you see an effect like that. You see it in Star Trek Voyager episode when Seven of Nine is on the holodeck, too.Tuvok of 9 05:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC) In "These are the Voyages..." Troi's uniform was a different colour, more teal then the blue in TNG. 15:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC) The bad guy The main criminal seemed to be unnamed.. any script references to his name or species? or should we link his credit to unnamed aliens or unnamed criminals? is it possible he was teneebian or was his species identifiable to anyone else? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 12:50, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC) :I was wondering about this myself. When writing the article, I got tired of trying to find other things to call him besides "alien leader." It would have been great if they at least mentioned his name or species, but I'm afraid there wasn't any in the final product. I don't know about the earlier scripts, though. Anyways, a link to unnamed aliens or something is probably in order. --From Andoria with Love 14:08, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC) **I've posed the idea of Unknown aliens at both Talk:Benzite and Talk:Axum. (Just keeping related ideas tied together) Jaf 02:04, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf ***Not that it's canon in anyway, but in the back of my head I just assumed he was a Teneebian as he was so desperate to get that Teneebian amethyst back. Just two cents. - AJHalliwell 02:11, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC) "The Pegasus"? My deep dislike of this episode aside, does it actually fit in with the events of "The Pegasus"? Tough Little Ship 13:09, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC) :I don't recall the crew having much time to goof off and sexually harass holograms of 22nd century space pioneers whuile they were surveying asteroids, but Riker was relieved of duty for a while--Captain Mike K. Barteltalk :*With the exception of Troi and Riker's obvious difference in appearances and no mention of Riker's match with Worf, the story fits in pretty well with "The Pegasus." And on a personal note, let me just say I am incredibly disturbed at the negative response to this episode. Yes, it was a bit disappointing, especially dealing with Trip's death, but it was in no way an awful episode. and that's all I gotta say about that. ;) --From Andoria with Love 13:41, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::*Hey, wait a sec -- since when is giving a frozen hologram of a sexy female Vulcan a peck on the cheek as a thank you considered sexual harassment? :P --From Andoria with Love 13:42, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::*And if Riker kissed a holographic version of you, how would you feel ;-) - AJHalliwell ::::*Ummm..... very insecure. :P Now if it was Troi, on the other hand... ;) --From Andoria with Love 14:04, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::::*Hm... looking back at this, I see I made a very interesting word choice with "insecure." I believe the word I meant was "uncomfortable." Then again, I believe they mean the same thing in some sense. But uncomfortable would have made more sense. It also would have been funnier. Oh, well. --From Andoria with Love 03:41, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC) For the love of all that is sacred Does anyone actually read all of this??? It's stupid to give every single little thing that every single minor character ever does, if your going through all that trouble just rent the episode. Jesus... :Yes, people do read it, and no, it's not stupid, regardless of what you think. People also worked hard to put this article together, meaning the phrase "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" applies here. Lastly, talk pages are for useful comments regarding the article, not for personal attacks against those who worked on it. In the meantime, if you don't like what's on an article, don't read it. Oh, and the article on Jesus can be found here. ;) See you... out there! --From Andoria with Love 01:37, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::I spotted this comment in the recent changes from Mike's below comment, but I actually think the vandal or whoever left that nasty comment sort of had a point. Even though I was a part of the fad, I think it's time we start writing summaries instead of novelizations. I'm sorry, but the idea that simple episode pages are featured is kind of ridiculous when you get right down to it. This probably sounds like the New Essentialists, but I think novelizations are the source of all the trouble (or at least most of it) we're having on MA right now. If we would stick to basics and nominate actual Trek articles instead of novelizations, everything would be fine and everyone would be happy; I'd much rather debate whether Nog or Wormhole relay station is ready than how many episodes, what kind of episodes, whether we should have an episode category, etc, etc... Oh boy, I hope I didn't just open a pandora's box with that little rant. --Schrei 01:43, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::I completely agree with you. I hate the "Act One, Act Two, Act Three" etc novelization of the episodes when a simple summary will do along with BG info, images and the usual quotes. Although I appreciate that someone has gone through the trouble of creating the article, I still believe that there is no need to get down every single moment of an episode. TrekFan 00:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC) ::::I'm not disagreeing, however, I prefer the novelizations but they needn't go overboard. For instance. There was an episode I was searching for a while back and couldn't remember what series it was. I found an article that was similar but the summary was lacking in information. Shran actually knew the episode when I described it to him. Had the article stated more information about what went on I think I would have found it a lot faster. Anyway, again, I think going overboard as you said with each little detail is too much but a good generalization of each Act is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. ::::Later, the two officers walk through a corridor aboard the starship. Riker states his surprise that Reed was shorter than he had imagined, explaining that he just expects famous people to be larger-than-life. Deanna suggests that he may want to skip ahead to the scene where an Andorian contacts Enterprise, as she believes the program becomes more interesting after that point. She also advises Riker to take over the ship's galley, having read that many officers aboard the NX-class starship confided in the vessel's chef. The first officer agrees to try Deanna's suggestion and offers to keep Troi informed of his progress. The counselor accepts Riker's proposal before he steps into a holodeck. Troi continues through the corridor and enters a turbolift. ::::To me that is going a bit overboard. It could probably be summed up a bit better with just a couple sentences. I started writing episode guides like that but it read pretty monotonously. 2c – Morder 00:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC) :::::The only part of this entire discussion which belongs on the These Are the Voyages... (episode) Talk: page is Shran's comment. TribbleFurSuit 01:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC) I don't mind the episode overview at the top. act 1, act 2, act 3, etc. I skip over it anyway. but I do like reading the background information and it would be nicer if the background info wasn't another recap of the episode... (like how it is on this one...) -- 03:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Removed I'm sorry, but how many details need to be linked from a brief timeline. Perhaps these lengthier explanations could be moved to the individual timeline pages, but they have a lot of links restated from the summary -- so i tried to shorten the text.--Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Removed Timeline ;2151 : The spacecraft is launched under the command of Captain Jonathan Archer. The first planet which the crew visits is Rigel X. ;2153-2154: The Enterprise enters the Delphic Expanse to search for the Xindi weapon. ;2154: With the assistance of the Andorian Shran, Archer is able to transport aboard and destroy the Xindi weapon before it destroys Earth. ;2155: Shran meets Jhamel, an Aenar female, during the Babel Crisis. ;2155 : Discussions for a Coalition of Planets begin on Earth. ;2156 : Jhamal gives birth to her and Shran's daughter, Talla. Shran subsequently leaves the Andorian Imperial Guard, despite having been branded a hero. ;2158 : Shran is forced to fake his own death so he and his family could escape from some disreputable business partners who believe Shran had stolen the Teneebian amethyst from them. ;2160 : Shran's former associates track down Shran and his family, forcing them to flee. ;2161 : Shran's former associates kidnap Talla from her home as Shran and Jhamal sleep and ransom her for the Teneebian amethyst. A week later, Shran contacts the Enterprise to assist in the rescue of his daughter. The mission is a success, but the kidnappers manage to board the Enterprise. Commander Charles Tucker III sacrifices his own life to save his captain and shipmates. ;2161 : Captain Archer gives an historic speech at the conference commemorating the ratification of the charter for an interspecies alliance. This alliance would give birth to the United Federation of Planets later in the year. ;2311 : The conflict known as the Tomed Incident is fought between the Federation and the Romulan Empire. It's end leads to the signing of the Treaty of Algeron, reestablishing the Romulan Neutral Zone and prohibiting Federation starships from using cloaking technology. ;2358 : The starship ''Pegasus'', under the command of Erik Pressman, secretly tests a prototype phasing cloaking device in violation of the Treaty of Algeron. William T. Riker is serving aboard the Pegasus at this time. During a test of the device, the majority of the crew mutiny against Pressman. Pressman, Riker, and seven others flee from the Pegasus as the ship explodes and is believed destroyed. The incident is subsequently covered up and Pressman forces Riker and the others to swear an oath of secrect. ;2370 : Evidence that the Pegasus was not destroyed is uncovered in the Devolin system. The is assigned to recover the ship and Pressman is brought aboard to oversee the operation. Riker, now serving as first officer of the Enterprise-D, seeks the assistance of Deanna Troi and a holoprogram depicting the NX class Enterprise s final mission to decide whether or not he should disobey orders and tell his commanding officer, Jean-Luc Picard, the truth about the Pegasus. After the Pegasus is found inside an asteroid, Riker finally decides to Picard the truth, uncovering the conspiracy. Failed FA nomination Hmm... I wonder if one of the reasons some people are hesitating in nominating this is because they didn't like the episode. I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with it, but the summaries for some of the more popular episodes... i.e., those for the Babel Crisis... are just as detailed as this was, so I really have to wonder. People said the summary was "too good" -- could that mean the episode doesn't deserve such a well-written summary? I really hope personal feelings toward the show or the episode was not a deciding factor in this getting shot down. In any case, Defiant is doing a great job of editing the article, so I hope it can be re-nominated sometime in the near future. --From Andoria with Love 01:55, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Personal feelings aren't as big a problem as personal preferences and politics. This is less a problem with TATV and more a problem with the changing attitude of MA's FA votes. AJ said on one of the votes that an episode being 33kb long shouldn't be a reason to support it, and I think the problem is that it's become both a reason to support and oppose episodes. That's why Emissary is an example of what future FAs will probably look like: less summary, more background. --Schrei 02:03, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC) Peer review In case you didn't know, this article has recently been nominated for Featured Article status, although the nomination was rejected. As some users had valid complaints about the article, I wish to comply with those complaints and try to make this article better. I would like to think that the article could be eventually re-nominated, although it will probably take a long time, if the amount of users who opposed the nomination is any indication! In the meantime, individual complaints can be left here. The article will be changed accordingly. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 17:46, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC) How is the edited "Teaser" section? Is it an improvement? --Defiant | ''Talk'' 18:40, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Yes it is. I made some change though you might want to check if they fit. -- Q 19:13, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC) :1 - the first change you made turns 2 sentences into 1 long, rambling sentence. In one of the policies, it encourages users to avoid rambling sentences. :2 - "is required to give a speech at an/'the' upcoming ceremony". In school, I was always taught that "a"/"an" are best used when first mentioning something, and to use "the" once you have established the topic. :3 - Can the Captain's Ready Room be simply referred to as just Ready Room? :4 - the word "whereupon" does the same as 1 - it turns 2 sentences into 1 long, rambling sentence. :5 - the word "orders". I've always thought that repetition is best avoided, but "orders" is written twice and quite close together! :6 - the word "even" should definately be capitalized, as it is the start of a new sentence. --Defiant | ''Talk'' 03:48, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::: 1 - My objective was to establish a timeline within the sentence. Doing this I do did not found it a rambling sentence. "In 2161, Ensigns Travis Mayweather and Hoshi Sato are on the bridge of the NX class spacecraft Enterprise, discussing Hoshi's plans for her future. From a column near the helm, Lieutenant Malcolm Reed approaches " I found the transition from "for her future. From a column" to abrupt. With "..for her future. When from a column" it has more flow. While Hoshi and Travis were talking Reed aproached. For me it made more sence. ::: 2 - I am unsure about this, had only 2 years of English, but because a dash is used I thought that 'the' would be in its place. "...to give a speech at an upcoming ceremony - the signing of a charter between ..." The ceremony is known when the sentence is finished so "...to give a speech at the upcoming ceremony - the signing of a charter between..." sounded better for me and it is not mentioned how many ceremonies there are in the episode timeframe. ::: 3 - Yes, why not. A starship has only one readyroom. ::: 4 - same as 1. -- Q 17:51, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::Oh, our first peer review - below is a list of things that I think prevent this page from being ''really'' great. This is surely incomplete, and a part is obviously based on personal preference: ::*The summary is too long. A summary is supposed to be condensed and concise - what we have here is not a summary, it is a retelling of the episode. I can't decide if we really want to have this (although I personally could go without it), but if we do, it should not replace the concise summary but be an additional section. ::*Summary subsections. I don't like the separation in "teaser" and "acts" as it is too artificial. A shortened summary could probably avoid subsections completely; for a retelling, I'd prefer subsections derived from the story itself. ::*Nitpicks section. I think that this section (on all episode pages, of course), is too subjective to really belong here - especially this nitpick. I'd like to see a continuity section describing errors (or the opposite) between different episodes, but nitpicks shouldn't have a place here. ::*Starship images. They are great, but seem to be "tagged on" somehow. Perhaps we could make an exception to our KISS-rule here and create some sort of table containing the three images and the quote? ::*Speaking of quotes, some are good, but I can't imagine why some of the others were added here. Perhaps look over them again - eventually, just a wild idea, those could even be placed in the retelling section, one per subsection? ::*Timeline - some of the events of this timeline are relatively unrelated to the episode itself. A timeline on an episode page should probably only contain events shown in that episode. ::-- Cid Highwind 20:37, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::Is Act One sufficiently edited or could it be smaller? To be quite honest, I don't know what can be removed from the first 2/3 paragraphs, any ideas? --Defiant | ''Talk'' 22:58, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) :I think little things like Troi's sarcastic remark ("that's why you run a starship and I'm a counselor") and they're making a dinner date in the corridor can be removed. Besides that, I'm not sure what else can be cut. Personally, I think the act looks great so far. :) (By the way, Defiant, did you get the comment I left on your talk page about these edits? I never received a reply, so I was just wondering; didn't want you to think I was ignoring them just 'cause it wasn't nominated as an FA. ;)) --From Andoria with Love 03:33, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC) I got it, Shran! Does the article have to be written from a beginner's viewpoint, explaining who all the characters are, or not. How much knowledge do we assume the reader has and how much detail do we go into explaining the characters and their relationships? --Defiant | ''Talk'' 13:43, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::I'm not sure a beginner's pov is necessary. If they want to learn who the characters are and their relationships to the others, ppl can just click on the links for those characters. Then again, I don't think little descriptions, such as "his best friend" or the like, would hurt any. But that's just one little Andorian's opinion. ;) --From Andoria with Love 22:30, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC) Any more comments? Any other ways to improve this article? Any comments that I haven't addressed yet because I've forgotten? Is the summary section still too large, as some complained when I nominated this article? --Defiant | ''Talk'' 22:21, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::Most of my comments still seem to be unaddressed, for example regarding the timeline, quotes and the starship images at the end. The new "continuity" section just has a new name, but still contains "nitpicks" as before. -- Cid Highwind 22:29, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::Much better, now. Good job, so far :) ::re:Quotes The more dubious ones have been removed, no further comment here. ::re:Timeline Unrelated entries removed, also no further comments. ::re:Continuity I'm still not too sure of the original entry (boarding party/MACO/force fields). It seems to be too nitpicky and speculative, nothing I'd like to see on every article page (after all, we're setting an example here). This is just a comment, though - I don't know if I'm the only one not liking that... Another thing, there could be some type of further comparison between TATV and "The Pegasus" regarding the continuity between those episodes. ::-- Cid Highwind 12:35, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC) :::I'm not entirely sure why the nitpick here such a problem. It is an obvious mistake on the part of the filmmaker's, and I was unaware that describing an episode's mistakes were not welcomed as background information. I don't think there's any harm in keeping it here. But that's just one little Andorian's opinion. :P --From Andoria with Love 17:50, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::The detailed comparison between TATV and Pegasus is great. With all the other changes and additions, all I can see at the moment are possible minor "cosmetic" changes, for example rearranging some of the images (when two are directly following each other, perhaps move one of them to the left?) or rearranging the various items in the section "Background information" (by topic, seems unordered now). I will reread the article once again tomorrow and then most probably support the new FA nomination. -- Cid Highwind 00:05, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::::Peer review is currently found at the Memory Alpha:Peer review/archive. --Alan del Beccio 12:51, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC) Act one question Don't want to be a nitpick, but to me this part sound better so I put in here.(don't want to edit the article itself) Any opinion ? -- Q 19:33, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) "The year is 2370 and aboard the Enterprise-D, First Officer Commander Riker and Counselor Deanna Troi are seated at a table in the Ten Forward lounge were they discuss Riker's personal dilemma. Riker reveals that his situation is highly classified when Troi asks about the holoprogram, which details the final mission of the Earth Starfleet Enterprise, she recommended. Riker answers that up to now he has gained no insight from the program and tells her he has even gone back a few days prior to the final mission to get a better perspective, but states he is unsure how the program will help him. Troi sarcastically assures him that it will help making Riker smile as he takes a sip of his beverage." Data Alive I just noticed something odd about this episode. Troi takes a communication from Data. Of course, during this episode, Riker is assumed to now be captain of the Enterprise. But how can Data both be on the Enterprise captained by Riker if he was killed in Nemesis, during Picard's Reign of the Enterprise. :The episode doesnt take place when Riker is captain of the Enterprise (in fact, he's never captained an Enterprise except temporarily). :"These Are the Voyages..." is said to take place during the mission to retrieve , in the TNG episode "The Pegasus", produced in TNG Season 7. This means it is the year 2370. This is evidenced by the fact that they are aboard , which was destroyed in 2371 (in ). Riker wears commander's rank insignia on his Starfleet uniform, and he didn't get promoted to captain until 2379. 2379 is the year Data died also, in . In Nemesis, Picard is in command of a completely different vessel, the , and Captain Riker commands only the . -- Captain M.K.B. 06:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC) Is this considered a TNG episode? Since this is set on the holodeck of the Enterprise-D, yet involves the crew of the Enterprise NX-01, couldn't this be considered both an ENT and TNG episode? Adamwankenobi 18:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC) :No, not really. The episode featured the opening credits of Enterprise and was filmed as a part of that series, so technically, it's an ENT episode, not a TNG one. Furthermore, only two of the main TNG characters (not counting Picard's archive footage and Data's voiceover) appear in the episode, and only for the sole purpose of presenting/playing out the final voyage of the NX-01. --From Andoria with Love 02:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC) ::That's what I thought. Adamwankenobi 16:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC) :::Wouldn't it have made a great special crossover episode if the two were blended together anytime after the original airing of These Are The Voyages...LReyomeXX 22:03, October 8, 2009 (UTC) Riker appearing outside of TNG The article states, "With their performances in this episode, Jonathan Frakes (Commander William T. Riker) and Marina Sirtis (Counselor Deanna Troi) join an exclusive club of actors who have both played the same character in three different Star Trek series." But didn't Frakes appear as Riker in the VOY episode ? --Kwekubo 13:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC) :Yes, the Voyager episode is one of the three. Remember that DS9 doesn't count because he was playing Thomas Riker in "Defiant", although I suppose you could argue that that's the same guy... --Pearse 13:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC) ::Sorry, I misread the sentence - I thought it said, "... the same character in different Star Trek series", overlooking his appearance in Death Wish. --Kwekubo A lotta nits I have removed this entire section as nitpicks are not what this encyclopedia is here for. --From Andoria with Love 11:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC) NCC-1701-D remake errors The episode includes several errors in its re-creation of Star Trek: The Next Generation sets. ;Ten-Forward: * The camera-panned footage of Ten-Forward was taken from "Ménage à Troi" and edited so that Lwaxana Troi is substituted by William T. Riker, causing him to appear twice. * Lights under the two steps from the bar area to the seating area are visible in "The Pegasus", but these lights are absent in "These Are the Voyages...". * Two officers are wearing early TNG uniforms (which have a lower collar). These uniforms do not appear beyond the third season, yet "These Are the Voyages..." takes place during the show's seventh season. * The panels on the wall behind Riker and Troi are reversed from as they appeared in the opening panning shot. * The table at which Riker and Troi sit is of a different shape. * In Ten-Forward's original construction, mirrors were used to make it appear as though the room continued on. In "These Are the Voyages..." these mirrors are replaced with black glass. ;Corridors * While the ceiling lights are a match, there is an error where the ceiling meets the wall: there is a grey panel in "These Are the Voyages..." with light coming from behind it. In all TNG episodes, the panels themselves are a light source. * The turbolift that Troi walks into after finishing with Riker does not look anything like an Enterprise-D turbolift. It is, in fact, from the . ;Observation lounge * The doors in "The Pegasus" are grey, not orange, and do not have a label. This error stems from the use of Enterprise-E doors, which are orange and labeled. * Next to the entrance at the end opposite from where Troi and Riker sit, there is a tree and some type of wall art. Neither of these appears in "The Pegasus". * The chairs in the conference room are slightly different: the chairs in "The Pegasus" have three creases running below the headrest and three buttons under the headrest, and the chairs are upholstered with a different fabric. ;Holodeck * The door operates with the regular door sound in Enterprise finale, rather than with the "heavier" sound used in TNG. ;Exterior * An exterior shot of the Enterprise-D shows its saucer impulse engines running. Throughout TNG s entire run, the saucer engines are seen running only during saucer separation scenes; otherwise, they are inactive. * The "neck" is incorrectly shaped, resulting in the saucer itself being too high up. * The nacelles are way too bright. * New lights have been added to Enterprise-D 's dorsal that were not present in Star Trek: The Next Generation, blinking white lights as well as red and green marker lights. The only red and green running lights on Enterprise-D were at the very rear of the stardrive section on top and bottom as well as on the port and starbord most points of the saucer. The latter were almost never seen but as the in Generations had them it's logical to assume Enterprise-D had them as well. Reaction In addition to the above I have removed the following "reaction" section. :This episode proved to be extremely controversial and quite unpopular among many ''Star Trek fans as well as with cast and crew. Some of the gripes include the focus on Riker and Troi rather than the Enterprise characters, a plot that many felt was fit for a regular episode rather than a finale, and Trip's death seeming like nothing more than a "ritual sacrifice" by the writers. As a result, many fans were immensely disappointed with this finale and consider to be the true series finale. Many have even gone so far as to propose that like , this episode should be considered "apocryphal", and a future series might retcon its events out of existence. There is also the possibility that data and events have been corrupted over the past 200 years, between the event occurring and the recording and playing of the holonovel. Aside from not being very "encyclopedic", it sounds as if it was written on a disgruntled fan blog, and quite frankly, I personally don't agree with the opinions stated-- unless of course this was quoted by someone in the production staff. --Alan del Beccio 06:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :I agree with the removal of the information as is, but perhaps something should be said about the controversy and overall negative response from the fans. It doesn't have to be long, maybe just one or two sentences, without going into any detail as to what fans didn't like about it and specifically what they thought of it. Not including at least a note of the reaction may make people think we're ignoring the fact that it wasn't well-received. Then again, this is an encyclopedia and may not really the place for stating what fans thought about an episode; maybe it's one of those "who cares?" type of deals, i.e. "who cares what others think, watch it and judge for yourself". Eh, whatever; whether something about it is included or not, I don't really care; just pointing that a brief note on the controversy may be in order. --From Andoria with Love 08:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC) ::Perhaps we, too, should implement and enforce something like Wikipedia's "Original Research" policy. We should include something about fan reaction, yes, but we should take it from some published resource (even one of the more reliable Trek news sites might do). -- Cid Highwind 09:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :::I too agree that there should be a reaction section. Wikipedia has one, and to not address how controversial this episode was for fans and the cast would be as bad, as ignoring the reactions for DS9's "A Pale Moonlight." Columns? In the article, under the "Sets" section, it is stated, "The second NX-class starship, Columbia, had columns installed on the bridge that Enterprise did not have at the time. In this episode, similar columns can be seen on Enterprise's bridge." Where are these columns? --NME 03:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC) :At several locations around the bridge, including two at either side of the captain's chair. Reed operates a screen on one of the columns at the start of the episode. --From Andoria with Love 03:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC) ::Oh, I see now. I thought by "columns" they were referring to those big glowing ones like at the back Columbia's bridge. Thanks. --NME 20:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Special Effects I noticed in this episode that the space flight sequences showing the Enterprise D are considerably more advanced than anything ever shown on TNG. Obviously, digital images compared to models used in TNG. This brings me to wonder: does anyone think that there's a market and/or opportunity for some special effects dress-up for a future TNG DVD/Blu Ray release, like they did with TOS? Going back and watching TNG, you notice that they keep recycling many shots, or new shots are relatively simplistic is quite a lot of cases, especially when you compare them to ENT.--Mcada 09:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC) *There was talk of remastering at least the early seasons of TNG, but I think that's been put on the back burner. Not sure. leandar 12:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Changed Rank Before it stated that T'pol's rank was Subcommander. Actually, after the end of the Second Season she resigns her comission with the High Command and she joins Earth Starfleet and is given the rank of Commander. We see this several times on her uniform as she wears a "skant" (?) type uniform of the 2150's era uniform, complete with Enterprise and Starfleet patches, not to mention the commander rank pins she has attached. Hope this clears it up. (Lieutenant Miller 20:27, January 4, 2010 (UTC)) Archer's speech / classic intro The Background Information section currently contains this perplexing statement: "Troi insinuates that Archer's speech was actually the opening intro 'Space, the final frontier...' to two of the Star Trek series." I just watched this episode for the second time, and I can't say that I saw any such insinuation. Furthermore, it seems nonsensical to imagine Archer delivering those lines as if they were a speech, for numerous reasons. Am I just being dense, or did someone essentially make that up and post it here? 20:20, November 7, 2010 (UTC) :I have to agree. I don't recall any connection being drawn between the two.--31dot 20:37, November 7, 2010 (UTC) Combined with "The Pegasus"? Has anybody ever seen this episode spliced together with "The Pegasus"? :If such a thing exists, I'm almost sure it is a fan creation, as I'm not aware of anything like that done officially.--31dot 18:07, December 9, 2010 (UTC) I would be interested to see how the two episodes run together - aside from the fact that Riker and Troi would dramatically age from one cut the to the next. Maybe someone could combine them as a fan creation? :Perhaps someone could, but that would be outside our purview.--31dot 20:28, December 9, 2010 (UTC) Whiskey Label Easter Egg Am I crazy, or does the bottle of whiskey Archer shares with Tucker say "Berman & Braga" on the label? I couldn't quite make it out on my TV, but someone with a DVD and a decent screen ought to be able to confirm. If so, seems like a neat item for "Apocrypha". 06:36, November 17, 2011 (UTC) :I wasn't able to decipher it myself. I agree it could be "Berman & Braga", and that would be a neat in-joke. We might have to see if there is some production source with a closeup. If that is the case, then we could accept it and "Berman & Braga" whiskey would actually be canon and get its own page. :Just to clarify though, if we note it on this page, it would be 'ordinary' background information, so wouldn't be under Apocrypha. Apocrypha is for licensed but non-canon works, such as novels, comics and games.–Cleanse ( talk | ) 01:07, November 19, 2011 (UTC) ::Thanks. Yeah, for some reason I was thinking of "apocrypha" as synonymous with "miscellany". Too bad it's just barely illegible, but it sure looks like that's what it says to me. 13:43, November 20, 2011 (UTC) Reception? The "Reception" section on this page currently talks about the responses of various people to the episode's overall reception, without describing the reception itself. From everything I've read, reactions were overwhelmingly negative, to the point where a remarkable number of fans single it out as never having happened. (The fact that its chief events are told through a Holodeck simulation helps. Anyway, that's probably beside the point.) The bullet points mention Manny Coto's response to "fan criticisms" and Rick Berman's thoughts about how he wouldn't have done it if he had known what "the reaction" would be, but more than with most episodes, it feels like something's missing. Or is it just me? - Caswin 04:29, April 17, 2012 (UTC) :"Fan" commentary isn't allowed, but production commentary is, as are "published" critics and other sources that would pass the citation "threshold". If it feels like something is missing, it's because no one has found a critical response to this episode that we allow that isn't the production staff responding to the response. - 04:48, April 17, 2012 (UTC)